Dice in Numenera
As I have written in the past, I struggled with the right dice to use in the game. I was tempted to use a d10 for quite some time, and I flirted with the normalization afforded by a bell curve of some kind.
The Twenty Sider
In the end, I decided to go with my old friend, the d20. To utilize it properly, however, I think one needs to attach special effects to the 1 and the 20. I mean, the point of the die is the thrill of rolling a 20 and the horror of rolling a 1. Since each has a 5% chance of coming up, it makes it clear that, for example, a d10 wouldn’t work. But I took it a step further, and actually put different special effects on 17, 18, and 19, as well as the 1 and the 20. That means that there’s 25% chance of something extra special happening on any given action–5% bad and 20% good. Here’s what I did:
On a 17 or 18, you get a Minor Effect. Basically, if this is a successful roll, you get to state something special that happens as a part of that action. Maybe in your jump you land with a flourish, or also knocked over the burning brazier onto the curtain to start a fire. Attack rolls with a Minor Effect either do additional damage or affect foes in some way–knocking them back, for example. On an 18, any points you spent on the action (such as through effort) are also reduced.
On a 19 or 20, you get a Major Effect. This is similar to the Minor Effect, but, you know, bigger in some way. You not only kick in the door, but momentarily intimidate all the foes on the other side. In battle, Major Effects do more damage or affect the targetsdramatically–knocking them down, disarming them, etc. On a 19, any points you spend on the action are reduced. On a 20, whatever points you spent return to your pool.
If the GM decides that the effect that you describe has a chance of failure, there may be a second roll involved. (Something simple, like adding damage in combat, never requires a different roll.) It’s worth noting that damage in Numenera is based on your weapon and other factors but isn’t random. So the variability in damage comes from Minor and Major Effects, not in a separate damage roll. Not only does this keep things moving faster, but it always means that if you roll well in combat, you’ll do better damage (or get a special effect).
On a 1, a GM can use “GM Intrusion” without awarding any experience points for it. Basically, things just get more complicated. This doesn’t always mean a “fumble” of course. It might mean that an opposing NPC does something really remarkable or lucky. It might mean that a seemingly random event makes things more interesting. It doesn’t really make narrative sense for someone extremely skilled at something should actually fumble at it 5% of the time. That’s also why if you are really good at a task, you can reduce the difficulty down to a point where you don’t even need to roll at all, and thus there’s no chance for a 1. (I’m experimenting in the playtests with a couple of ways that give you a chance at a good effect even in the “auto success” range.)
In the end, this means that with a typically sized group, there will be a special roll of some kind once or twice each round, which makes for very dynamic, exciting play.
This is why in the Numenera Kickstarter I put a unique dice set in as a stretch goal. I want to create a d20 with an indicator on the 5 results that have special effects. I’m still in talks with dice manufacturers to discuss the ins and outs of making this happen. (It’s not a matter of if it will happen–it will. It’s a matter of how it’s best done.)
Other Dice
The other dice that you need to play Numenera are 1d6 and 2d10 (percentile). The d6 is used only in rare instances. It’s almost inconsequential, but I figure everyone’s got a six sider laying around, so it’s not a strain to call for it occasionally. The percentile dice are used by the GM when rolling for various random things that only the GM rolls for. The Numenera book is going to be filled with lots of tables for the GM, mostly to help in adventure creation. Tables about the weird aspect of an isolated community, about mutations, about bioengineered effects, about incredible devices, and much, much more. As a game about ideas, I want to ensure that no Numenera GM ever runs out. (And the best thing about tables is, if you don’t like random generation, you can just pick what’s appropriate.) These tables will always be percentile based. So since GMs don’t roll for NPCs, the 2d10 become the GM’s dice.
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LOVE THIS. _SO_ LOVE THIS.
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I’m liking the sound of the mechanics more and more
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The Numenera book is going to be filled with lots of tables for the GM, mostly to help in adventure creation. Tables about the weird aspect of an isolated community, about mutations, about bioengineered effects, about incredible devices, and much, much more.
This little comment at the end makes me really, really interested in Numenera, because it sounds like those tools might be useful for non-Numenera games too (like a Vancian traditional fantasy game). It would be cool to hear more about the GM tools.
Also, on a tangent, will the physical core book be signature stitched or only glued? I have a weakness for well-bound books.
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“The d6 is used only in rare instances. It’s almost inconsequential, but I figure everyone’s got a six sider laying around, so it’s not a strain to call for it occasionally. ”
Urmmm…for…what exactly? I understand the rarity of the need but at least give an example?
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I absolutely love the idea. My group has consistently used critical hits and misses charts for a long time for added flavor and fun. The idea of raising the chances of some “extra” event happening from 10% to 25% is a great idea! I wish I had thought of that before. Include some lesser effects at lower numbers. Keep at it Monte, this is shaping up to look so good.
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I absolutely love the idea. My group has consistently used critical hits and misses charts for a long time for added flavor and fun. The idea of raising the chances of some “extra” event happening from 10% to 25% is a great idea! I wish I had thought of that before. Include some lesser effects at lower numbers. Keep at it Monte, this is shaping up to look so good.
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It’s amazing how much I’m digging this system you’re building. You really should consider building a ‘system’ book once you’re well entrenched in the Numenaria setting. Even a little hundred page book with the core systems (a la Savage Worlds) would be fantastic.
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Hmmm, very interesting. I definitely look forward to seeing this in action.
I think I would have gone 1&2, 18-20 effects as opposed to 1, 17-20. 10% bad/15% good. I like to keep things tough and challenging, a bad roll is as likely to make things more interesting and dramatic as a good one. But I guess I’m just a mean GM. lol -
Now I desperately want one of those special d20′s. This is a fantastic way to blend dice rolling and storytelling: structured, but open-ended at the same time. It’s very similar to what I do as a GM anyway, but I love, love, love that the description/storytelling powers (and responsibilities!) shift to the players.
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The more I hear about this the more I can’t wait to see it. It fits the tone I’ve been looking for in my games
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Well, without even knowing what the special indicators on the d20 were used for, I already found myself over-eager for a glimpse at them. Now… its torture to wait for what those Numenera dice look like as a whole. I’m, yet again, blown away by this concept of ‘minor’ and ‘major’ effects.
You stated the d6 is used rarely, and obviously not for basic damage – could you give us an example of when it might come up?-
If this blows you away, you might want to avoid systems with full-blown success levels, like Unisystem. Your head might explode.
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Actually Alternity is the first place I saw the method of multiple success levels (Amazing successes, etc), its more of the (implied) open-ended nature of them being built into a core rule system (instead of just something we tacked on for our own tastes). As far as Unisystem goes, I know nothing more of it than the wiki tells me
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It always was my belief that dice was never to be used as a decisions making tool. I looked at rolls as a guide to the outcome as dictated by the actions of players. At first when I started playing/DM(ing) I needed all the charts and die roll equivalence written in the module/campaign as I figured the writer knew better than me what a certain roll was equal to. However as yrs. passed I as a DM, would allow the players to hear the dice roll but never allowed them to see the outcome. I played with people who had “favorite” dice that did seem to roll an amazing amount of successes rather than failures. I had people roll out in the open so everyone saw the result. They committed on why my die rolls were concealed, it was a running joke and we had a good time with the situation. One day I started rolling out in the open and ended up that the die rolls were actually killing more and more times than missing the characters. The players then told me to start rolling behind the screen from then on. It was then I figured it out. No real reason to actually roll a die once I had the entire scenario in my head and where the players stood in comparison to that particular scenario. I knew how the players strategy was in comparison to the situations and power of their adversaries. I threw in things like the “surprised guards” when the cell door magically clicked open, how the oil lamp on the card table went out of oil as the adversaries attacked the winning PC as he was using magic to get around the card game. These things will eventually come to a DM/GM as he/she learns their players and how that particular group likes to play. Please don’t use the dice for the answers to the game play. glance at charts if ideas don’t come that day readily or fast enough but relying on a die roll isn’t fun it’s lazy.
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The only issue I can think of is that there are a lot of inconsistent thresholds for d20 rolls. With the 1-10 difficulty system, where the target numbers are Difficulty x 3, that gives you target numbers of 3, 6, 9, 12, 15, and 18 on actually possible rolls. But you also have to watch for 1, 17, 18, 19 & 20.
In particular, 17 is a Minor Effect number, put across as a “lesser critical”. But on a Difficulty 6 task, it wouldn’t even be enough to succeed.
The underlying concept is awesome, but there seems to be too many different ranges of numbers to keep track of on every d20 roll.
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I agree. I also think 25% “special” results may be a bit too much and will tax the GM’s improvisation ability. I guess that will be found out in playtesting, though, especially with GMs not called Monte…
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From what I understand, it won’t be the GM coming up with the special, extra effects, it’ll be the players. Especially as the GM doesn’t role dice in this system. A bit more adjudication, maybe.
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“(…) the point of the die is the thrill of rolling a 20 and the horror of rolling a 1″
I also think that 20% of “positive” results take the thrill out of rolling a 20.
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You might have a point. I think it could be mitigated by having a d20 with two 0 sides and three sides of each number 1-6. One of the fives and all of the sixes (essentially 17-20) could have a series of dots to note the magnitude of the critical effect. I would still make the zero and these critical successes different colors. This way the die matches the target numbers and eliminates calculations while providing a clear visual of criticals.
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The amount of “things that could happen” shouldn’t be as complicated as in Role Master charts. I have seen a lot of critical hit and miss charts, they were from 01-100 and normally fell within small groups of 3-5 of the rolled number. Thinking the author should have just counted the total amount of groups and roll that die instead just adding or subtracting to make a situation rolled to make any sense in comparison to what the players were doing. Again dice are optional IMHO and unless the DM is new and actually needs his/her hand held by referring to a chart then so be it. He or she will eventually catch on to their players and what makes for a fun game for them and the DM. Don’t get me wrong though, there are some OCD individuals who demand the dice roll and will not waiver from the written outcome and they absolutely have to have that for them to enjoy the game, and that’s fine. As long as the game is fun and not boring or hum-drum. With charts eventually everyone will know the number they don’t want rolled..lol.
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Interesting, the D20 + Skill was one of my least favorite dice mechanics, primarily due to the huge variation that seemed to de-emphasize your character and made randomness king (especially at low skill levels). I do like the use of a single die type and a small number of dice, my favorite probably being FUDGE dice which use just 4 dice to create a very good distribution curve as long as you didn’t need a lot of granularity in skill levels.
So I’m interested in hearing more details on how this d20 system works.
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“…dice are optional IMHO”. Chance has a powerful effect in games, by taking it away you loose the thrill of unexpected consequences and the illusion that the players control their fate by their throwing the dice. Although an illusion, with chance pulling the levers behind the curtain, it is more magical than knowing a gm is calling all the shots.
“…seems to be too many different ranges of numbers to keep track of on every d20 roll.” Game mechanics should not have any unnecessary complexity. That does not mean that the mechanics should be simple i.e. flipping a coin is about as simple as it gets. Every element of complexity should add more to the experience of play than it takes away with added difficulty. As long as the tasks are routine enough our unconscious brain can learn to process the tasks quickly and with little effort. In asking what does 2 X 3 =, the answer pops into your head with little thought. 12 X 13 = takes effort, but if you had a good reason and took the time to learn the multiplication tables up to 13 it would be as easy as 2 X 3. Every new system has a learning curve. The best systems offer the biggest payouts in enhanced game play for their added complexity.
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I personally like minimalistic systems, and this idea of “one roll determines it all” is awesome. HOWEVER, I see a problem with those fixed Major and Minor Effects. In this situation, any task dificult enough (say, difficulty 18+) becomes an all or nothing situation, as any success has a major effect. I was hoping for something more like Dragon Age, with two dies, one of them having special effects attached to it.
Maybe keeping 20 as a special roll, with a minor effect attached. But you could also spend some effort, not to decrease difficulty, but to add a d6 to your roll, and in a roll of 6 (or less, depending on effort), you get a minor effect OR up your 20 into a major one.Meh, it’s more complicated, but adds a curve to those probabilities, I guess
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Yeah, I was thinking of that too. There may be times where it will be either critical hit or no hit. Not a big fan of that scenario. While the roll to confirm critical mechanic was cumbersome and unpopular (to some) in 3rd Ed, it did offer a middle ground these sorts of situations.
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what i’ve been struggling with over the past years is that dices whatever they are d20 2d6 or 3d100 always endup with same mechanics. I know that the system works, specially for rpgs, but couldnt you try to spice it up a bit, give more tactics/risk back to the player? here’s for instance something i came up with, based on Machinations visual engine:
http://www.jorisdormans.nl/machinations/forum/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=23#p65
hit run, and the click on the first dice at the right, and follow the flow.. when you have no more dices to roll ( or choose to end up the turn) click on the end turn triangle.
the more you take the risk to roll dices in the same turn, the more the chances to get higher hitpoints -
err i mean the first on the left
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I quite like the idea of someone adding a minor effect, rolling for it, then rolling another minor effect on that roll. All the fun of exploding dice, but with more fictional detail.
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Also, the fact that only players are rolling dice allows you to be far more generous with this kind of mechanic; earthdawn had the old problem of very low level npcs just oneshotting player characters thanks to incredibly unlikely rolls, which for some people is good story fodder, but for me it just means that players have a harder time predicting anything. Whereas you can have a dice mechanic shifted towards positive results, and still keep the exceptional events from enemies under control.
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You were right to take the uniform d20 over a bell-curve. Since most games use “at most” or “at least” targets to resolve binary events the idea that bell-curves have normalizing effects in games is a fallacy.
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Why dice?
Seriously.
This is not pen & paper., This is a video game. Dice are nothing but an arbitrary limit to game mechanics.
Take the original Planescape Torment for example, using old AD&D rules. A 20 on the hit roll means hitting against any armor class.
That means the weakest of enemies will still hit you regardless of being lvl 50 or whatever.
This is just silly and is annoying for the player.I remember one area (somewhere in hell) where 20 or 30 weak as hell enemies were all over the place and all I wanted to do with cross the map and go somewhere else.
Fighting them would have been pointless because they gave so little exp, I would have had to kill a thousand or so to level up and they did not drop more than a handful of coins and no items.
Yet due to the old dice based game mechanics, I was attacked so much than I was hit every 5-10 seconds for minimal damage and every time The Nameles One stopped, his taking damage animation was played and then he started running again which also required an inbetween animation.
In the end what normally should have taken less than 30 seconds ended up taking a full 5 minutes.In a better designed battle engine, they might have attacked me but could not have gotten hit and would have just run past them and be done with it.
When you think of it, do you REALLY need that 5% chance to fail even when your skill is at mastery or when you are that much stronger than an enemy?
Do you REALLY need the 5% (or in this case a whole 20%) chance of of success despite having barely 1 rank in a skill or being severely underpowered to fight this boss?
It accomplishes nothing besides an inconvenient element of randomness.
Likewise, simple damage calculation is VERY random.
Take any rpg no based on D&D, if your average spell does 400 damage, your average variance is 10%, i.e. you will deal between 3500and 450 damage.
That’s fine. That’s nice. That’s a reasonable amount of variance.
Now take the dice based equivalent.
Even with the lowest amount of variance, i.e. 100d4 you will still deal 1000-4000 damage, i.e. 75% variance.
This is unacceptable.
That is the difference between being lvl 25 when fighting the boss or lvl 40. That is huge and can easily get you killed.
Or on the other hand lets you 3shot a boss in no time when it should have been a tough battle.
And mostly other dice are used, just think of 40d10 in this case.
40-400 damage.
A NINETY PERCENT, yes 90% variance.
That is the difference between just getting to lvl 3 and already being lvl 30.
Either you whittle away at a supposedly easy boss and take forever to beat something that should be easy, or you suddenly oneshot a boss supposedly far beyond your capabilities.
Balancing also becomes very hard when game mechanics are so very random.Finally, realistically 5% is not the amount one screws up or has critical amounts of luck.
If you take someone skilled in a profession normally doing that (lockpicking, smithing, whatever) the probability of screwing up is maybe 0.01%.
When not rushed or inconvenienced being careful drops the probability for messing up very, very low.On the other hand, there is a always a limit to someone’s abilities. Even if they can outshine themselves, they can never perform a feat that is too far beyond their normal abilities.
So, D20 for skill checks or battle becomes pointless.Are dice based game mechanics truly mandatory for a D&D inspired video game?
One would think what truly matters are not the game mechanics but the setting.-
“This is not pen & paper.”
Actually, that’s precisely what it is.
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I can understand how someone got to this post after being introduced to Numenera through the inXile Kickstarter for Torment. But how do you get to this site and this post, read through it, and still think you’re dealing with a video game? Heck, the Torment Kickstarter page even talks about how it’s based on Monte’s *tabletop* game.
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This sounds awesome! Really great ideas with the dice!
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